WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:22.000 Welcome to Bro Enough, a podcast meant to shine light into the controversial existence of being masculine. And before our opinion becomes a determining conversation, we're going to reach out to professionals to understand what it is, isn't, what's working, and needs replacement into being a bro. This is Bro Enough, with your host, Gonzo D. 00:00:22.000 --> 00:01:01.000 We'd like to thank our sponsor, La Jolla Recovery, before getting back to our interview. La Jolla Recovery is an alcohol and drug treatment center in San Diego, providing evidence-based solutions to addiction for over 12 years. The pandemic has impacted mental health immensely, and if you're wondering whether a loved one or yourself might be using a substance beyond recreation or fun or social bonding, La Jolla Recovery wants to answer all your questions in a private and confidential manner at lajollarecovery.com. That's l-a-j-o-l-l-a-recovery.com. That's again l-a-j-o-l-l-a-recovery.com. Now back to our interview. 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:24.000 Kevin B., clinical supervisor at a mental health treatment center in San Diego. Men. Men's well-being, men's mental health. COVID has intensified the things that we had inside and all of a sudden they're out here front and center. What, what keeps men from asking help? 00:01:24.000 --> 00:02:29.000 The stigma. The stigma of mental health, that means you're weak. For some people in our culture, in Western culture, for a long time, mental health has always had a stigma. You know, oh, if you see a therapist, you're quote-unquote crazy. You know, but what is crazy? You know, it's got this term that it's this negative thing that you're dealing with anxiety or depression. But we know that every individual at some point in their life has experienced depression or anxiety. That doesn't mean it always becomes a clinical diagnosis. They've experienced the feelings and the emotions. But in our society, with masculine toxicity, um, men aren't taught to be emotional. We're not taught to talk about our emotions. The one emotion we are allowed to have is anger. And so that becomes very normalized in our sports, these things, the way we interact as men with the world. Uh, you know, I'm tough, I'm this, I'm that. And to say that I have a mental health means that there's a weakness here. But within a weakness, there can be a strength if we choose to look at it the right way. 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:31.000 What do you think's behind it? 00:02:31.000 --> 00:03:30.000 The way we were raised as a culture of people. It's indoctrinated from family to family, and it's supported within, you know, um, communities, and then it spreads all the way out. And it's supported in our media. It's supported by, uh, you know, um, people that people look up to, like, um, celebrities, sports figures, all of these things. It's reinforced over and over. You know, this toxic masculinity is a concept that's come out in the last like five years of being really spoken about, maybe a little more, but like you're hearing more and more about it. And it's these, uh, microaggressions that happen that teach a man to get in the lane of this is masculine. So crying, that's weak. Oh, you're, you know, excuse my language, you're a pussy. And you're told that. And that's reinforced in schools and you see it in the bullying behavior and stuff. You know, oh, that's just boys being boys. Is it really just boys being boys? Or is it knocking somebody into a zone that you want them in because that's the box? 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:45.000 And how do you, how do you get to, how do you get that place where you're finally able to see the other side, if there is a side, and how do you cross or what's the first attempt? Is it just intervention or is it, or are now people reaching out? 00:03:45.000 --> 00:04:26.000 I think that it's psychoeducation. I think it's about talking about it. So when I see it, I will, I will say, oh, that sounds like toxic masculinity. And it gets people talking, well, what is that? And you start teaching, you start talking about it. So it's about having conversations to normalize that men have emotions that are other than anger. You know, um, and so getting, and then other people are like, yeah, like I dealt with da da da da. It's, we weren't allowed to talk about it for so long. So it's creating a space that we provide the education about some of the things that people are experiencing, uh, normalizing that that is what happened and it does continue to happen, and then creating a space for the conversations of how we're going to do different. 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:43.000 And I, I was looking at research and it seems that, uh, it's teenage years and when, when people are in, older, it's when they, they, they can cause self, not only self-harm, but, um, self-homicide. Uh, has, obviously... 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:44.000 Suicidal ideation? 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:45.000 Suicidal ideation. 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:46.000 Thoughts of wanting to hurt themselves. 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:50.000 So it seems like there is a, there's a burnout. You can't just be angry all of your life. 00:04:50.000 --> 00:05:00.000 Correct. Correct. And then some people will use drugs and alcohol to mask, to subdue those feelings that they're feeling. 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:05.000 So drinking and drugs is not just for fun. It's a, it's a, you're self... 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:06.000 It's a way of coping. 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:07.000 It's medication. 00:05:07.000 --> 00:06:04.000 Self-medication. You know, it's a coping skill. It's the bottom of the barrel of coping skills, but for lots of people, oh, I'm stressed. I'm going to have a drink because it takes the edge off. And then it becomes that's the only way that you're dealing with things and over time, you become addicted to it. You're no longer able to just put it down. You know, um, and then you're still masking all these emotions. And so for a lot of people when they go into recovery, there is emotional dysregulation that happens. The, all of a sudden it's like, I want to cry, I want to scream, I want to, like, their emotions are all over the place because the substances that they were, they were using has diminished, uh, subdued, whatever word we want to use, you know, um, knocked them down. And so they're bubbling all up. And sometimes you weren't taught the skills how to regulate those emotions. And that's something that we do do here at this program is teaching how to regulate yourself in the moment. 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:09.000 So you can't just talk about it with anyone. Meaning that I can't just talk to my bro. 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:39.000 Absolutely you can talk about that with anybody. It's calling out those behaviors. If you become aware and you're educated and your mind is open to this concept of trauma around men that we can't talk about it and, and then the behaviors that we do to keep people in a lane of not talking about it or that promotes this toxic masculinity, it's our job to point it out if we're aware of it. You know, and so it's like those little microaggressions, those little statements and like kind of like, nah man, that wasn't cool. 00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:42.000 What, what are some of those microaggressions for someone who doesn't... 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:46.000 Oh, it's like, oh, don't be a [unclear] or this. Uh, just kind of some of that like joking around stuff. 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:48.000 Oh, don't, don't cry or everything's gonna... 00:06:48.000 --> 00:07:02.000 Right, right, right, right. Oh, don't be a girl. You know, well, what is being a girl? So, because girls are emotional, they're less than men? That's what you're saying in that statement. So this, that's perpetuating this gender role that men are this and women are this, when we're all just human beings. 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:09.000 So if a man doesn't tap into these feelings, it, it might be limiting to the capacity to connect to others? 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:34.000 Yes. I wouldn't say for every, it's different for everybody. I can't say to what degree, but absolutely I think that not tapping into those impacts certain relationships. You know, you have, I deal with couples and it's like, oh, he just doesn't understand. He never talks about anything. So here's this divide in a relationship. A woman wants to hear, she's saying like, I want to hear from my husband. I want to know that he's struggling. And so it's creating this gap at times. 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:39.000 Are, are, are, um, our partners also scared when someone starts being, is there a... 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:48.000 Sometimes. Right, because it's not normal. So then all of a sudden it's like, what's going on? You know, so it does take time to like have it settle down. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:58.000 What, how are some of those symptoms? What, what would you tell someone, how would I know if I'm angry all the time and I don't even know it? How, how, how could I tell? 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:00.000 That's a good question. 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:04.000 Having... I'm thinking people are having a hard time now sleeping. Is that a sign of being angry all the time? 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:06.000 That's a sign of many things. 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:08.000 Isolation, no friends? 00:08:08.000 --> 00:09:00.000 Right. That could be a sign of anger. I mean, I think anger is very overt. I think that it's very in your face. You know what I mean? Um, especially for men. Like, it's the aggressions that you see, like the, you know, posturing, body language, that puffing up, um, you know, um, just verbal aggression, things of that nature. And I'm not saying every man is angry either, though. You know, it's just normalized that that is one of the emotions we're allowed to show. Because in general, I show all emotions. So emotions, we all have them. We have to be taught how to speak about them and recognize what they are. You know, some men, some even women can't even identify beyond sad, tearful, and angry. But there's frustration, there's annoyance, there's bliss, there's joy. 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:24.000 you know, and what those really are, you know, and women tap into it more because we know that they're more of a, a verbal way of communicating, that they speak, you know, um, women's word banks are usually bigger than men because men don't speak in that way so to speak. Like there's research that goes around that and stuff. So men, it's about finding the words to talk about the emotions. 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:25.000 What would you say... 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:28.000 They experience them, they just don't know how to identify them and it gets funneled into anger. 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:36.000 What would be some of the first steps for someone saying, I need help, where do I start? Cause Google, you know, do I want to go on a forum? 00:09:36.000 --> 00:10:05.000 Right. It's, well, it's really for each person to say when they want to start. Maybe it is a forum because it's less abrasive, um, behind a screen, they don't know me and so kind of getting dabbling and getting your feet in that way. And then the other ones, it's just straight up support groups. I mean, there's support groups for anger management, um, and stuff, you know, the AA groups, those are support groups. They're going to talk about anger. Anger got in a lot of way and came out in aggression and got them in trouble and all kinds of things. 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:09.000 Is it enough to just not drink or do drugs? 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:55.000 No, I think that there's work that absolutely has to happen here. Like you can't just say, oh, I'm not drinking. Like there's work underneath that has to happen. You know, um, it's like say somebody who had an injury and gets addicted to opiates. So there there's a physical injury that happened and then because of care and people not monitoring or they're abusing, they become physically dependent to it. But there's still this underlying stuff that's there. Why did I become dependent to it? What, where did it mess up relationships with people, jobs, school, these impairments that it creates. You have to talk about it. There's resentments, angers, guilt, shame that's all wrapped around this experience. 00:10:55.000 --> 00:11:06.000 And outside of asking for help, what are some tools for someone to start understanding what they're going through and, and, and feelings? You said mindfulness. How can someone start that journey? 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:33.000 There's a lot of, um, 10-minute meditation, guided meditations. I mean, that's what mindfulness is, being present in the moment. So one of the best ways is to start with meditation. And maybe you can only do two minutes. That's great. You know what I mean? It takes time to build up to these people that are doing like a half hour. They didn't, that didn't happen overnight. That it's an exercise. It's like, uh, you know, working out your biceps. You just got to work out this kind of muscle, this memory muscle. 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:39.000 So closing your eyes and breathing might be very overwhelming for someone who's never really changed the way they breathe? 00:11:39.000 --> 00:12:22.000 Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, breathing is, I tell my clients all the time, it's like breathing is the best thing we can do because we can, that's a coping skill we can utilize anywhere. I could be standing in a line right now and frustrated with the person in front of me because they're taking forever. So now I've become triggered, right? So here's this emotional response. Um, we know that when we become triggered, our brain goes into fight, flight, or freeze at times. And so then the oxygen isn't getting all the way up to our, um, frontal lobe, prefrontal cortex. So rational thinking kind of comes offline. So when you take deep breaths, you're getting some oxygen back in there and you're like, oh, okay, I can think again, like, I can now look at this in a different way where it's like, you know, she's older or this or that without having sitting in the frustration. 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.000 So this is science. 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.000 There is science to it, absolutely. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:32.000 And it's almost like it doesn't require a wearable or an iOS or a download app. It's just breathing. But this is a habit. 00:12:32.000 --> 00:13:28.000 No. You can literally right now, like I could be triggered for whatever reason. Uh, maybe I feel threatened. And so when you get triggered in some way, there usually is a physiological response in our body that happens. Heart rate goes up, sweating, for some people they become numb. There's these different physiological things that happen. And it tips us out to not being present in the moment. We're triggered to whatever happened in the past, that experience. So then we start losing sight of what's in front of us. So one of the things we can do is like, in this room, that's an orange chair, that's a blue couch, I see a white wall. I'm naming things in my environment that have pulled me back into this moment. I can feel that this counter is rough, cool. I'm pulling myself back mindfully into this moment and now I can access, oh, he's not coming at me. He didn't back me into a corner. We're just standing here having this conversation. And this is just an example of like how I could become triggered because something like that, as easy of a position of way somebody stands can trigger us to a moment. 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:36.000 So you're saying we're so caught up in our minds that sometimes we forget the, the, the nice things that we have? 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:43.000 It's not about the nice things that we have. It's about grounding ourselves into the moment, what's around us. Because you could be outside... 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.000 I find myself breathing right now when you say that. 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:59.000 Yeah. You could be outside and you're identifying gray pavement, you know, black car. You're just calling out what's in front of you in that moment to pull you back into a, a space that's regulated. 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:03.000 What's a good way to start? What's the, like how do I meditate? 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:21.000 I would start with, um, a 10-minute or a five-minute guided meditation. Just go onto YouTube, Google, uh, five-minute meditation for peace or depression or anxiety, those kind of things. Depending what you're dealing with. Um, some of it is just do a guided meditation. 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:22.000 So just start. 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.000 Just, absolutely, just start. 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:25.000 So I'm a guy... 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:27.000 And don't beat yourself up if you don't do it every day. Just when you remember to do it. 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:30.000 Okay. So it's not gonna be, it's like the gym. If I went all out during Christmas and I need to get back in January, this is a habit. 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:36.000 Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:44.000 Kevin, thank you for giving us a little bit more awareness about what it is to perhaps become a man if some of us don't even know what it is to be one. 00:14:44.000 --> 00:15:00.000 Well, what, what is it? What does it mean to be a man? That's the problem with toxic masculinity is we're taught this is the only way to be a man. But I think it's just about being a human being. Why does it even have to be about gender? You know? Women can be just as masculine as men at times, if not more. 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.000 I think we've got our next podcast lined up. Thank you, Kevin. 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:10.000 You're welcome.